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	<title>Comments on: A Critique of the Extreme-Male-Brain Theory of Autism</title>
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	<link>http://www.journeyswithautism.com/2009/07/02/a-critique-of-the-extreme-male-brain-theory-of-autism/</link>
	<description>Reports from Life on the Spectrum</description>
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		<title>By: Rachel</title>
		<link>http://www.journeyswithautism.com/2009/07/02/a-critique-of-the-extreme-male-brain-theory-of-autism/comment-page-1/#comment-62841</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 20:25:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aspergerjourneys.com/?p=2857#comment-62841</guid>
		<description>Jennifer, that&#039;s really interesting. More grist for the mill!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jennifer, that&#8217;s really interesting. More grist for the mill!</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer</title>
		<link>http://www.journeyswithautism.com/2009/07/02/a-critique-of-the-extreme-male-brain-theory-of-autism/comment-page-1/#comment-62833</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 14:37:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aspergerjourneys.com/?p=2857#comment-62833</guid>
		<description>Sorry! Correction to my previous post- I should have said an extra x chromosome.
(I&#039;m a bit tired, please excuse my incompetence.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry! Correction to my previous post- I should have said an extra x chromosome.<br />
(I&#8217;m a bit tired, please excuse my incompetence.)</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer</title>
		<link>http://www.journeyswithautism.com/2009/07/02/a-critique-of-the-extreme-male-brain-theory-of-autism/comment-page-1/#comment-62832</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 14:33:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aspergerjourneys.com/?p=2857#comment-62832</guid>
		<description>I recet came across a syndrome which affects males, but who have an extra y chromosome (Klinefelter syndrome.)  Many people with this syndrome have PDD nos too.
This seems to be added evidence against the extreme male brain theory in autism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recet came across a syndrome which affects males, but who have an extra y chromosome (Klinefelter syndrome.)  Many people with this syndrome have PDD nos too.<br />
This seems to be added evidence against the extreme male brain theory in autism.</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel</title>
		<link>http://www.journeyswithautism.com/2009/07/02/a-critique-of-the-extreme-male-brain-theory-of-autism/comment-page-1/#comment-62802</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 23:13:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aspergerjourneys.com/?p=2857#comment-62802</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve done some EMDR therapy and it&#039;s been very effective. I&#039;m not sure about the relationship between stimming and EMDR, though. What they seem to have in common is the repetitive motion that somehow calms the system. But since no one really knows why EMDR works, it&#039;s hard to tell whether it soothes the nervous system by the same mechanism that stimming does. 

I was told by my OT not to do EMDR work while I was doing OT. When I mentioned it, she looked positively alarmed and said that it would severely overload my system. So that may be evidence that EMDR works differently from stimming. After all, she didn&#039;t tell me to stay away from stimming altogether. In fact, she encouraged me to stim whenever I needed to. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve done some EMDR therapy and it&#8217;s been very effective. I&#8217;m not sure about the relationship between stimming and EMDR, though. What they seem to have in common is the repetitive motion that somehow calms the system. But since no one really knows why EMDR works, it&#8217;s hard to tell whether it soothes the nervous system by the same mechanism that stimming does. </p>
<p>I was told by my OT not to do EMDR work while I was doing OT. When I mentioned it, she looked positively alarmed and said that it would severely overload my system. So that may be evidence that EMDR works differently from stimming. After all, she didn&#8217;t tell me to stay away from stimming altogether. In fact, she encouraged me to stim whenever I needed to. <img src='http://www.journeyswithautism.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: DonkeyBuster</title>
		<link>http://www.journeyswithautism.com/2009/07/02/a-critique-of-the-extreme-male-brain-theory-of-autism/comment-page-1/#comment-62801</link>
		<dc:creator>DonkeyBuster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 19:06:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aspergerjourneys.com/?p=2857#comment-62801</guid>
		<description>Loved your critique, Rachel. Very right on. 

I wonder if the posit that stimming is a form of systematizing behavior may not be related to the systematizing integrative effects of EMDR, if you&#039;ve ever experienced that treatment for PTSD. I&#039;ve had positive effects from a form of that--the finger waving version-- and it does remind me of finger flipping my profoundly autistic brother does when he&#039;s happy.

I&#039;m diagnosed AS (not surprisingly) and I stim when I&#039;m severely stressed, which I am pretty darn good at avoiding by now. I do think the activity might have a similar action in the mind to the EMDR.

Just a thought...
DB</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Loved your critique, Rachel. Very right on. </p>
<p>I wonder if the posit that stimming is a form of systematizing behavior may not be related to the systematizing integrative effects of EMDR, if you&#8217;ve ever experienced that treatment for PTSD. I&#8217;ve had positive effects from a form of that&#8211;the finger waving version&#8211; and it does remind me of finger flipping my profoundly autistic brother does when he&#8217;s happy.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m diagnosed AS (not surprisingly) and I stim when I&#8217;m severely stressed, which I am pretty darn good at avoiding by now. I do think the activity might have a similar action in the mind to the EMDR.</p>
<p>Just a thought&#8230;<br />
DB</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel</title>
		<link>http://www.journeyswithautism.com/2009/07/02/a-critique-of-the-extreme-male-brain-theory-of-autism/comment-page-1/#comment-62799</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 12:52:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aspergerjourneys.com/?p=2857#comment-62799</guid>
		<description>Hi Michelle,

You make an excellent point. In arguing against what I consider Baron-Cohen&#039;s oversimplications about innate male and female traits, I overstated. What I meant to say is that any research that leaves the influence of culture out of the equation, especially concerning its effect on gender roles and gender identity, is fundamentally flawed. One cannot assert, with any assurance, that male and female traits have only a biological/neurological foundation any more than one can assert that they are only cultural constructs. The interaction between nature and nurture is too complex to develop a theory in which one trumps the other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Michelle,</p>
<p>You make an excellent point. In arguing against what I consider Baron-Cohen&#8217;s oversimplications about innate male and female traits, I overstated. What I meant to say is that any research that leaves the influence of culture out of the equation, especially concerning its effect on gender roles and gender identity, is fundamentally flawed. One cannot assert, with any assurance, that male and female traits have only a biological/neurological foundation any more than one can assert that they are only cultural constructs. The interaction between nature and nurture is too complex to develop a theory in which one trumps the other.</p>
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		<title>By: Michelle</title>
		<link>http://www.journeyswithautism.com/2009/07/02/a-critique-of-the-extreme-male-brain-theory-of-autism/comment-page-1/#comment-62798</link>
		<dc:creator>Michelle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 12:14:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aspergerjourneys.com/?p=2857#comment-62798</guid>
		<description>Hi Rachel,

I love reading your blog.

It&#039;s vital to examine the flaws and assumptions made in such research. I was very much agreeing with your critique until I read the following point you made, on which I&#039;d like to give feedback:

&quot;Any difference in abilities between males and females can easily be explained not by brain structure, but by the ways in which girls are socialized and educated in western societies.&quot;

Cognitive abilities and traits such as the one you mentioned have been studied through neuropsychological and other tests and do have a biological basis. Many studies investigate the neural correlates of such cognitive traits (for example, those associated with executive dysfunction.) Endophenotypes are also studied.

I felt the need to comment on this point because it reminded me of some of the assumptions of psychologists I have met who insist that all cognitive traits and neurologically-based issues can be explained purely by things like culture, social context, upbringing and gender roles. They are unaware of the research literature demonstrating the etiology of such traits and conditions is more complex than this, having strong genetic and neurobiological basis. This assumption is still prevalent among professionals today (the consequences of which I have had the misfortune of experiencing firsthand), and can result in harm. In many places today, eating disorders, anxiety disorders and autism are being blamed purely on nurture and environmental causes. This is in spite of it now being known there are innate predisposing risk factors involved, such as the cognitive style of detail-oriented processing associated with eating disorders. Cognitive traits and styles are to a large degree innate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Rachel,</p>
<p>I love reading your blog.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s vital to examine the flaws and assumptions made in such research. I was very much agreeing with your critique until I read the following point you made, on which I&#8217;d like to give feedback:</p>
<p>&#8220;Any difference in abilities between males and females can easily be explained not by brain structure, but by the ways in which girls are socialized and educated in western societies.&#8221;</p>
<p>Cognitive abilities and traits such as the one you mentioned have been studied through neuropsychological and other tests and do have a biological basis. Many studies investigate the neural correlates of such cognitive traits (for example, those associated with executive dysfunction.) Endophenotypes are also studied.</p>
<p>I felt the need to comment on this point because it reminded me of some of the assumptions of psychologists I have met who insist that all cognitive traits and neurologically-based issues can be explained purely by things like culture, social context, upbringing and gender roles. They are unaware of the research literature demonstrating the etiology of such traits and conditions is more complex than this, having strong genetic and neurobiological basis. This assumption is still prevalent among professionals today (the consequences of which I have had the misfortune of experiencing firsthand), and can result in harm. In many places today, eating disorders, anxiety disorders and autism are being blamed purely on nurture and environmental causes. This is in spite of it now being known there are innate predisposing risk factors involved, such as the cognitive style of detail-oriented processing associated with eating disorders. Cognitive traits and styles are to a large degree innate.</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel</title>
		<link>http://www.journeyswithautism.com/2009/07/02/a-critique-of-the-extreme-male-brain-theory-of-autism/comment-page-1/#comment-62795</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 10:43:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aspergerjourneys.com/?p=2857#comment-62795</guid>
		<description>Hi Belfast, and welcome!

Thanks for the link to the Gestalt forum. I have a feeling I&#039;ll be spending some time there. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Belfast, and welcome!</p>
<p>Thanks for the link to the Gestalt forum. I have a feeling I&#8217;ll be spending some time there. <img src='http://www.journeyswithautism.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Belfast</title>
		<link>http://www.journeyswithautism.com/2009/07/02/a-critique-of-the-extreme-male-brain-theory-of-autism/comment-page-1/#comment-62793</link>
		<dc:creator>Belfast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 07:53:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aspergerjourneys.com/?p=2857#comment-62793</guid>
		<description>Have you come across the ASD forum &quot;Gestalt&quot; ? It&#039;s small, women are well-represented, and high-level intellectual topics come up on regular basis.
http://asdgestalt.com/index.php
Dunno&#039; if I can put a link to the site here, but there are discusssions by fellow aspies on the whole prenatal testosterone &amp; &quot;male brain&quot; angle of Baron-Cohen&#039;s.

As a female who got Asperger&#039;s dx late in life, I took the EQ &amp; SQ tests in back of B-C&#039;s &quot;The Essential Difference&quot; book. I got very low scores on both scales, which would indicate I do little of either systemizing or empathizing ? My NT boyfriend at the time took same quizzes &amp; got high scores on both scales. Go figure...

Only recently found this blog, and I resonate with so much of what you&#039;ve described throughout the posts. Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have you come across the ASD forum &#8220;Gestalt&#8221; ? It&#8217;s small, women are well-represented, and high-level intellectual topics come up on regular basis.<br />
<a href="http://asdgestalt.com/index.php" rel="nofollow">http://asdgestalt.com/index.php</a><br />
Dunno&#8217; if I can put a link to the site here, but there are discusssions by fellow aspies on the whole prenatal testosterone &amp; &#8220;male brain&#8221; angle of Baron-Cohen&#8217;s.</p>
<p>As a female who got Asperger&#8217;s dx late in life, I took the EQ &amp; SQ tests in back of B-C&#8217;s &#8220;The Essential Difference&#8221; book. I got very low scores on both scales, which would indicate I do little of either systemizing or empathizing ? My NT boyfriend at the time took same quizzes &amp; got high scores on both scales. Go figure&#8230;</p>
<p>Only recently found this blog, and I resonate with so much of what you&#8217;ve described throughout the posts. Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Saja</title>
		<link>http://www.journeyswithautism.com/2009/07/02/a-critique-of-the-extreme-male-brain-theory-of-autism/comment-page-1/#comment-62792</link>
		<dc:creator>Saja</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 07:45:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aspergerjourneys.com/?p=2857#comment-62792</guid>
		<description>Rachel - I agree that some of the generalizations made about autistics are very alarming. My relating-to-others problems stem from an overabundance of empathy, if anything. Those dehumanizing generalizations, based on external behavior, may not be too damaging for you and me, but consider people like Amanda Baggs: nonverbal autistics who present with highly non-normal behavior, and are, based on external cues, determined to be retarded, unfeeling, antisocial, and a host of other things that absolutely do NOT apply. But the profoundly autistic can&#039;t argue otherwise.

Ever since my daughter spent a year in a wheelchair and looked during the last months of her illness very much like someone retarded, I&#039;ve made a point of making eye contact with everyone I pass who seems disabled. What are the chances that beneath the spastic exterior resides someone perfectly lucid and intelligent? Even if it only happens once in my lifetime, I will be overjoyed if I manage to affirm the humanity of someone who rarely gets treated like a person.

On generalizing a population: this already happens in the mainstream world, of course. There are technical definitions of normal (such as IQ test scores) that get applied to all of us, and not a single human being is &quot;normal&quot; in every respect. (And if there is one, well, that&#039;s the exception that proves the rule: how abnormal is being normal in every single respect? :-) ) And generalizations have their uses. Oaks aren&#039;t elms, but it&#039;s useful to have a category &quot;tree&quot; which represents their general commonalities. But people shouldn&#039;t forget that generalizations have limited applicability--and when they do, that&#039;s where the problems begin to get serious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rachel &#8211; I agree that some of the generalizations made about autistics are very alarming. My relating-to-others problems stem from an overabundance of empathy, if anything. Those dehumanizing generalizations, based on external behavior, may not be too damaging for you and me, but consider people like Amanda Baggs: nonverbal autistics who present with highly non-normal behavior, and are, based on external cues, determined to be retarded, unfeeling, antisocial, and a host of other things that absolutely do NOT apply. But the profoundly autistic can&#8217;t argue otherwise.</p>
<p>Ever since my daughter spent a year in a wheelchair and looked during the last months of her illness very much like someone retarded, I&#8217;ve made a point of making eye contact with everyone I pass who seems disabled. What are the chances that beneath the spastic exterior resides someone perfectly lucid and intelligent? Even if it only happens once in my lifetime, I will be overjoyed if I manage to affirm the humanity of someone who rarely gets treated like a person.</p>
<p>On generalizing a population: this already happens in the mainstream world, of course. There are technical definitions of normal (such as IQ test scores) that get applied to all of us, and not a single human being is &#8220;normal&#8221; in every respect. (And if there is one, well, that&#8217;s the exception that proves the rule: how abnormal is being normal in every single respect? <img src='http://www.journeyswithautism.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />  ) And generalizations have their uses. Oaks aren&#8217;t elms, but it&#8217;s useful to have a category &#8220;tree&#8221; which represents their general commonalities. But people shouldn&#8217;t forget that generalizations have limited applicability&#8211;and when they do, that&#8217;s where the problems begin to get serious.</p>
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